Rize: Please don't answer this with a bunch of theological mumbo jumbo. I'm an ex-Christian, so I know all the BS reasoning already.In this particular case, we were dicussing the fact that God is both merciful and just. Surprisingly many people, due to their misunderstanding of both mercy and justice, view the two traits as mutually exclusive. However, the doctrine that God is both merciful and just is one of the central Christian doctrines. Jesus' substitutionary death to make salvation available to sinners makes no sense apart from a clear understanding of God's merciful and just nature. Because of his demonstrated misunderstanding, I wrote,
TheoConfidor: I'm not really sure that you can reasonably consider yourself an ex-Christian. It doesn't seem that you are familiar with even basic orthodox Christian theology. If you don't understand the nature of God, the nature of evil and the significance of the death of Jesus Christ, then you can't possibly have been a Christian to begin with. From our discussions it seems that you don't really know all the "BS reasoning" at allIn response to this, he wrote,
Rize: If it doesn't seem that I'm familiar with basic orthodox Christian theology, then it's only because there are so many competing branches (and my rejection of all of them probably doesn't help) and the instruction manual is ambiguous. Define orthodox Christianity? The few things that 90% of Christians agree on our probably known to every slightly educated person in the western hemisphere. If you want to go into the nuances, who can pin those down? To use your own example, what Christian knows the nature of God and how have they deciphered it? The Bible lists dozens of attributes that are impossible to understand rationally and frequently seem to contradict one another.Obviously, this raises the question, "What is basic Christian orthodoxy?" Though the full spectrum of orthodoxy can be quite complicated and involved, there are a few central beliefs that more than 95% of Christians believe (this includes Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant Christianity). One simply cannot be a Christian, or reasonably claim to be a Christian, without understanding these basic doctrines. Similarly, despite the fact that there are relatively few basic orthodox Christian beliefs, I doubt that I'd agree with Rize that "the few things that 90% of Christians agree on are probably known to every slightly educated person in the western hemisphere." I doubt this, because more often than not, when talking to seemingly educated people in the Western hemisphere, there seems to be vast amounts of confusion or misunderstanding over even the most basic Christian doctrines.
In this post, I want to establish a list of what I consider to be the most basic and fundamental orthodox Christian positions, and briefly explain the scope and meaning of each doctrine. Given that being a Christian necessarily entails an understanding of the gospel and a saving faith in Jesus Christ, any doctrine that is needed to fully understand the bare essentials of salvation is a basic orthodox Christian doctrine. These doctrines are:
1 - The Existence of God
All of Christianity is based on the fundamental idea that God exists and is the Creator of the universe.
2 - The Nature of God
Being a Christian requires having a basic understanding of the nature of God, namely that God is a personal Being who has communicated truthfully to humans, that He is loving, that He is just, and that He is merciful.
3 - Man's Sinfulness
The Bible clearly teaches that God has established a clear, propositional moral code for people to follow, and that all people have broken God's commands. As such, all people are sinners who bear real moral guilt before God, and deserve the penalty for sin, which is death.
4 - Jesus is God Incarnate
Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, is God in human form. He came to this earth and lived a sinless life, so that He would be capable of serving as a sacrificial substitute for sinful human beings.
5 - Jesus Christ's Death on the Cross
After living a sinless life, Jesus Christ died on the cross, which paid the penalty for the sins of the world so that God's wrath would be appeased for all who believe in Him, and all believers would then become positionally righteous before God.
6 - Christ's Resurrection to Secure New Life
Three days after Jesus Christ died on the cross, He came back to life, just as He promised before his death. His resurrection proves his victory over sin and death and gives new life to all who place their faith in Him.
All six of these doctrines are absolutely essential to Christianity. Consequently, I would say that no person can reasonably claim to be a Christian, be an "ex-Christian" or even be slightly familiar with Christianity unless they have a clear understanding of all six doctrines. Much as it would be silly to criticize vegetarianism unless you knew what vegetarianism actually is, it is quite absurd to criticize Christianity (or defend it) without knowing what Christianity actually is. One can only speak intelligently about a subject that one is familiar with. For that reason, I think it is quite absurd for someone who does not understand even what the Bible teaches about God being merciful and just and man's sinfulness to claim to know "the few things that 90% of Christians actually agree on."
Silas –
ReplyDeleteA very good post. I generally agree with your main point. I'd point out a few minor clarifications of how EOs would phrase some of these points – almost, but not quite, the same:
1 - The Existence of God
All of Christianity is based on the fundamental idea that God exists and is the Creator of the universe.
Check
2 - The Nature of God
Being a Christian requires having a basic understanding of the nature of God, namely that God is a personal Being who has communicated truthfully to humans, that He is loving, that He is just, and that He is merciful.
Check
3 - Man's Sinfulness
The Bible clearly teaches that God has established a clear, propositional moral code for people to follow, and that all people have broken God's commands. As such, all people are sinners who bear real moral guilt before God, and without the saving grace of God would experience true death, because sin leads away from God, who is life, and towards death.
4 - Jesus is God Incarnate
Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, is God in human form. He came to this earth and lived a sinless life, so that He could conquer death by presenting death with the sinless, deathless man, a man who could therefore not be contained by death, thereby freeing from the fate of death all those who believe in Him and who have died and risen with Him in baptism.
5 - Jesus Christ's Death on the Cross
After living a sinless life, Jesus Christ died on the cross, thereby serving as the sacrificial lamb of God, offered for the sins of the world so that those who believe in Him and are baptized into his death and resurrection could live the new life of the sinless man in Christ.
6 - Christ's Resurrection to Secure New Life
Three days after Jesus Christ died on the cross, He came back to life, just as He promised before his death. His resurrection proves his victory over sin and death and gives new life to all who place their faith in Him and who are baptized into his death and resurrection..
The basic thrust is the same in EO Christianity as in the West, but EOs tend to see the issues of sin, death and resurrection from the model outlined above rather than the familiar penal model common to the West following Augustine. But the main point remains the same – it isn't a disagreement among Christians, as rather a different way of expressing the same essential shared truth.
Novaseeker,
ReplyDeleteThank you very much for offering a more in death EO position on the doctrines stated. I very much appreciate hearing those ways of viewing and expressing those doctrines. Yeah, I still agree that the main thrust and even a lot of the specifics are functionally identical. For example, I completely agree with the idea of sin naturally leading to death, and with baptism into Jesus' death and resurrection being crucial.
Are you a practicing EO Christian?
Hi Silas --
ReplyDeleteYes I was received into the Orthodox Church in 2000, from the Catholic Church (which I was born into).
N
Is this the same Novaseeker who is openly advocating nihilism over on the Spearhead? I get the impression you are not sure of your commitments.
ReplyDeleteI'm curious, Silas, what do you view as the nature and role of the Church?
ReplyDeleteOperation Mafia is a massive multiplayer online mafia text based game. You are a mafia who starts with nothing your goal are to become a ruthless mafia. To achieve this you will have to complete difficult mafia operations as you go up.
ReplyDelete